Changes in trixbox regarding FreePBX

Kerry, this is very good. Thank you so much. But, will we still have a "backup and restore" module and ALL the modules that FreePBX has now? These are MUSTS. Also, will your new version of "freepbx" be just like freepbx with implementing ring groups, IVR options, etc? Like right now, I can put 301 as a hidden IVR option that only I would know. Will stuff like this be on this new version?
Also, what's going to be with the _conf files?
I dont mind doing this, but I'm going to have to learn trixbox from scratch if you made major changes

NOTHING is changing in what you have been used to. There is no difference in the conf files or in how *_custom.conf files work. All the regular modules you are used to are all there and all the standard ones are now enabled by default, making it easier and faster to get up and running with a new system.

We are taking the entire source tree and simply applying our own patches to it to fix bugs, add features, and allow for better integration.

Already available:

http://trixbox.org/forums/trixbox-ce-development-forum/beta-forum...

I think Kerry's user account has been "jacked" or maybe I've had too many beers. Either way, I hope this is a good thing (better be, just signed up for FtOCC today).

What a joke, disgrace, and compilation of utter lies. You'll hear from me on this tomorrow after I cool off. Or not if I can't find a way to contain my thoughts into a semblance of reasonable thoughts to illustrate the disgrace of this action.

I, of course, have new appreciation for making the books balance. But I'm curious why Fonality rejected financially supporting FreePBX while, at the same time... "Well, about a month or two ago, we took the current FreePBX code and began aggressively (with several full time people) working to integrate the GUI, fix bugs, and add features."

Full-time people still cost money where I come from. But, if you've solved that, too, PLEASE share the formula.

And, yes, we accept. We'd love to look at the configuration tool. Can you provide a link? We don't want to run FreePBX out of business. In fact, quite the contrary. It's in everyone's best interests to document and get a good handle on what's involved in supporting this critical component of the open source telephony movement in the event Philippe (or Chris or Andrew or Kerry) decides one day to throw in the towel.

Hey Ethan i thought that you and your Magic Button were getting into bed with Trixbox/Fonality, i hope your not having second thoughts

I don't recall any flaming of Elastix for originally forking trixbox, or being the first to debrand FreePBX. I have also seen MANY posts about people bitching that trixbox doesn't have a professional enough looking interface. So I am lost as to why there is a double-standard here. I don't see FreePBX having big icons for each module that says "Writting by xxxx" on it so FreePBX has taken the work of others and branded it as their own. When I use some feature in Asterisk I dont hear in my phone "this feature was written by xxxx". So why should trixbox have to have advertisments all over it for freepbx and their training? It sure seems like the FreePBX project has rather stalled lately as Phillipe has focused on trying to make his money on training so I applaud the trixbox team for trying to keep things rolling, meeting the demands of its users, and being open and upfront about it.

Robert,
You obviously dont understand valuation, if a product you make doesnt look like you own product and is riddled with other product brands, your product valuation is seriously impacted.

The point is without Freepbx there would be no Trixbox, this something that TB wants to hide from the world I guess.

It should be
.........Trixbox Powered by Freepbx..........

And I am sorry but the TB's teams packaging is not very good.

This fbosco character is transparent, and you are embarrassing yourselves. Cut the act.

For those who haven't figured it out: "fbosco" is a fictional character created by someone at Fonality so they can have a voice in the "community."

This is called "astroturfing" and is an abhorrent practice. It makes the assumption that the user community is made of easily lead sheep. Ignore "him".

So you just happened to make your very fist post ever in these forums, after being here almost a year, just to defend Fonality. Can you guys make the next one have a registration date of 6-6-06? That would be cool.

I'll go ahead and answer anyway, since you're being kind enough to lob the balls and it's a perfect opportunity to explain more of the problem:

True. However, it's also about community, and Fonality hasn't been a very good member.

That's because the grievances go beyond this one post, and are a culmination of many other things that I won't bother explaining right now. Suffice it to say that this is hardly the first move by Fonality that has been criticized (for good reason) and these comments need to be seen in the context that they're informed by things outside this thread.

There's nothing stopping trixbox devs from re-reporting users bugs at the FreePBX tracker, or contributing code directly to them. (As far as I know.)

And Fonality uses this confusion to their advantage and hardly do anything to clear up the misconception. This is a poor way to participate in a community.

Now I know for sure you're another plant. It hurts the FreePBX project by further reducing its visibility and perpetuating the user confusion you've already admitted to.

I nearly fell over in my chair laughing, Kodak:

fbosco wrote:

words

It almost made me forget about this whole act of insolence. Almost.

More from me later.

I am not going to comment on some of the posts but I will respond to this one and say that Phillipe would not collaborate on anything that helped to embed FreePBX into other projects. It was not for a lack of trying either as some have suggested.

Kerry, Chris, team,
First of all I would like to take a moment to thank you all for spending this time and money on keeping this project going and improving.

Please don't let the *haterz* out there dissuade your efforts. Those of us with our feet firmly planted on terra firma understand these efforts.

For those of you unhappy, go elsewhere. Better yet take the code and make your own friggin version. Heck if its any good I will try it too...

I am, for one, INCREDIBLY thankful for this project. I have to opportunity to make money on my own helping SMB shops get this up and running. So, thanks Fonality and the CE team, your time and efforts are greatly appreciated.

__________________
Nate
Charlotte, NC

Yeah I am kinda in that same point also. I try and understand everyones view however I can't seem to get worked up about it.

From a pure business standpoint I completely understand what Fonailty choose to do. FreePBX code is in the public domain. Phillipe could have gone out and raised the money and put together a distribution exactly like he wants and then compete in that space. For whatever reason they choose not to do that.

I would like to see Fonality direct significant effort towards the call processing code. From a user standpoint the FreePBX and trixbox experience are identical. To me that would add significant value. For all I know that is exactly what is in trixbox Pro. So would partnering even closer with the endpoint vendors to provide very tight endpoint integration and improved functionality.

Since at the end of the day Chis has to answer to the folks at Azure and Intel that funded all of this that which drives revenue takes precedence. I am sure CE is one way to drive revenue toward Pro.

I don't think that making money is a shameful thing. Being in business for myself also I understand the reality of not being able to make everybody happy.

Exactly, just like Fonality did at the end of the day I have to take care of my business needs first.

All of this aside, I enjoy (most of the time) helping folks out in these Forum's and showing the value of Open Source based telephony.

I am far more interested in how the entire landscape (FreePBX and all of the distributions) will look in 2 years than in the short term "adjustments". Time will tell if these are mesoscale events or have long lasting significance.

Scott

There is a very significant difference between Free and Open Source code and public domain code. FreePBX is Free Software, distributed under (I believe) the GPLv2, which is not public domain. Not to single you out specifically, Scott, but it's an important distinction. From the Wikipedia article:

"Instead of allowing a work to fall completely into the public domain (where no copyright restrictions are imposed), copyleft allows an author to impose some but not all copyright restrictions on those who want to engage in activities that would otherwise be considered copyright infringement."

This allows you to do what Fonality did here. It's perfectly legal, but that doesn't make it ethical. They have responsibilities to the community that they're taking from that they don't appear to be living up to.

Did you know it's possible to disagree about something and not be hateful? It's true, look it up. Not everything has to be a flame war. Unfortunately, many people always seem to take it there -- instead of having a fruitful two way conversation, they over simplify the issues, take sides and begin hurling insults. That's not productive.

You know, aside from a few bucks I've made via Paypal (mostly from Scott -- thanks Scott!) I've yet to make a god damn dime on a phone system. The one really good bid I had? The customer ran to Craigslist with my bid and got some basement dwelling bottom feeder to do it for cheap (the lesson here, kids, is: never itemize, especially if the customer explicitly requests it.) I'm here to learn, teach and participate in a community. And from my perspective I see these rinky-dink companies sitting in a sandbox throwing sand at each other when they could be working together to take on the big boys.

This is so much like the Unix wars of the '80s that I just have to laugh sometimes. History repeats itself.

This is a surprising development. Frankly I don't know how to feel about it. So I'm going to err on the side of openness.

Say what you will about Fonality they have always publicly stated intention, direction, and what you're allowed to do and not do with the software. They are walking a tightrope with both open source and commercial software projects and Kerry has shown grace under fire whenever any contentious issue arrises.

At OTTS Tony very directly stated that he made a deal with Philippe to rebrand the UI for his own uses. Here Kerry said that Fonality tried to come to an agreement with Philippe on rebranding but was rebuffed. So which is it?

If FreePBX is only going to allow Schoomze to rebrand and no one else, lets get that out in the open. That having been said, if Fonality offered two subway tokens and a coupon for Taco Bell, maybe a more of a realistic offer was in order. Or if Atengo wants a lear jet in exchange for the right to re-brand they need a lesson in win-win deal making.

One of the rumors at OTTS was that Fonality was trying to hire Philippe and pull FreePBX completely under Trixbox with no other outlet. (NOTE: I heard that third hand, at best, so don't place much weight on it. I'm only mentioning it because it seems relevant)

Perhaps we could get the principals involved to chime in with what really happened here. Kerry, Philippe, Chris, Tony?

What might be really helpful is if Philippe would openly state what the rules are for re-branding FreePBX. If it is allowed, what are the terms? Do you feel Trixbox is breaking, bending, or abiding by the rules?

Certainly Ethan and Tony sound upset, but maybe that is because they paid to rebrand when they could have had it for free. Also, Kerry's original post quite thinly veiled his displeasure at FreePBX holding there own training sessions. (As if Fonality should have a monopoly on training revenue).

Perhaps Kerry could give a list of bug fixes that are in the TB rev of freebpx. What were the bugs you were having trouble getting addressed? My diff of the files pretty much show it to just be a branding change. BTW: You got ripped off if that took a few full time people a month or more.

I can't help but get the feeling I'm watching a chess game from below the height of the table.

I would be more than happy to fill everyone in on the negotiation between trixbox and FreePBX but I would have to get the OK from all the parties involved since it is the ethical and moral thing to do. I helped out with the discussions from a stand point of business development for FreePBX and I think I have some what of an outside perspective on what happen and where things might of fallen apart.

I am not upset because I paid for our private version of FreePBX. We made a conscious decision to pay Philippe for his hard work which allows me to sleep at night without feeling I just stole from someone. You also have to understand that our company continues to pay Philippe for new features that benefit the whole community with things like Voicemail Blast Groups, Speech Recg Company Directory and numerous others and a whole bunch that were slated for release shortly. We also submit bug fixes and donate countless hours to code development and business development for FreePBX. I know the GPL would allow us to take the code but I could not in good conscience do this. This is our way of giving back to the community that allows us to sell hundreds of PBX's a year with a staff of 4 full time people.

I hope that in the end this whole community of Asterisk people from Elastix, FreePBX, Trixbox, Fonality, PBXiaF and Digium can learn to get along and help move forward the growth of Asterisk. Remember guys this whole group of people represents less than 1 PERCENT of the whole PBX market and here we are fighting between ourselves when we should be fighting the evil empire of MS, Avaya and all the others.

As my favorite saying goes WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG.

Little doggie?

exploiting small animals for personal amusement tisk you could have at least put a black line over the eyes to make him anonymous

That is exactly what I was saying about how I would do it. It is presumptuous of me to assume that Fonality has not compensated Phillippe.

Our company conducts itself exactly as you describe. We contribute to the community in direct proportion to our revenue not profit.

I left Motorola last year to participate full time in our business. Our team was responsible for the development and FOA (First Outside Application) of a CLASS 5 softswitch for wireless (CDMA and GSM). Much of the 3GPP work is a direct outgrowth of our work and it is all based on SIP. If you use Push to Talk over CMDA service on Verizon Wirelesses network you are making a SIP call.

I can't begin to tell you the budget our group had to develop and productize the softswitch. If I had those funds to place at the hands of the group you just referenced I can't imagine what would happen.

Asterisk is such an enabling and disruptive technology. That fact that it was created by such a relatively small group of people speaks volumes for the ability and tenacity of this group.

Developers and Product Managers never quite see eye to eye. I view the trixbox project as Product Management and Marketing.

I see that not everybody agrees that the visibility trixbox has brought to the community is in itself valuable. I do see the value in the trixbox CE project.

Personally I have a hard time commenting on the motives and ethics of people I do not know.

An hour ago I thought this thread was going to become a classic serious debate and that some good might come of it.
Now I see people's dogs all over the place. What happened? I think this thread has ADD...

Are you saying dogs aren't good? YOU HAVE IMPUGNED MY HONOR, SIR!

Choose your weapon!

Good sir, I meant no disrespect. However, my wife assures me we like cats, not dogs. Apparently this is what I like.

Because apparently the damn "Magic Button" isn't installed yet.... I was planning on using it later tonight... Fork this... Fork that... Fork... Fork... Fork...

Cats

are clearly inferior to dogs.

and since we are showing off pets my ankle biter

The wifes

and drum roll

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James
Is that the staples easy button. Just do not get me sued by staples I am sure Microsoft will be suing us for patent violation with our magic button already. Got to love out patent system in this country

wierd poorly shot night vision video makes me think of paris hilton

I needed a good laugh :-)

I got into using Asterisk@Home after reading an article on the subject at Nerd Vittles. I installed the first version of Trixbox but haven't really kept it updated because I'm afraid of breaking something. I have been updating Asterisk and FreePBX, but not always immediately when a new version appears. My main point is, I'm not using this stuff for any commercial purpose - I'm using it because I enjoy it, and I have learned a lot (about both VoIP phone systems and Linux) by playing with it.

Here's the real point I wanted to make: I think the pinnacle of this project in terms of responsiveness to users was when Rob Thomas was in charge. I understand about being squeezed too thin and the fact that he had family obligations, but when Rob was running things you could talk to him on IRC and he would often help you with some particularly knotty problem. But more to the point, when someone wanted to help develop a new feature, he didn't turn them away or make it difficult for them. I'm not saying that all was perfect; there was a mountain of bug reports he just couldn't get to, and he didn't have time to answer every question. But I definitely had the sense that there was a community there and he was providing the example, by helping those he could, and by being open to new ideas.

Once everything went to Trixbox and FreePBX, things changed. The biggest change I noticed was that the "Not Invented Here" syndrome reared its ugly head, and I'd say both sides were guilty of that. For example, the Custom Contexts module was contributed by an IRC user, but for some reason Phillipe and crew initially treated it almost like something they would scrape off their shoe, because it didn't fit in with some nebulous future direction that FreePBX would be taking. Never mind that here was a potential module developer that was initially willing to help out, and never mind that it was and continues to be a very popular add-on module, the FreePBX guys just couldn't be bothered to integrate it into FreePBX themselves (in whatever way would fit with their goals), nor to accept this offering with any degree of grace and gratitude (and no, I am NOT the developer of that module, just a happy user of it). And that only one example, there were many other similar instances where user contributions were all but ignored.

In the early days, some modules were written in Perl. Suddenly they wouldn't even look at anything in Perl, it had to be in PHP. And as I say, it had to not only work with the existing FreePBX software but also had to conform to some vision they had for the future - except that they never really published that vision. Nor did they ever offer any explicit guidance for aspiring module authors, other than to tell them to look at the source of existing modules (most of which is very sparsely commented) and figure it out for themselves.

In short, the reason that there is only one developer for FreePBX is because that one developer, whether intentionally or not, made others feel unwelcome and their contributions unworthy. I think the author of the Custom Contexts module (and a few other modules that also were given short shrift) was particularly treated badly, to the point that he just dropped out of sight and moved on to other projects. If by some odd chance Fonality tracked him down and hired him, I'd say they made a very good move (and if they didn't, maybe they should).

Also there is the matter of the FreePBX wiki. There was a very good wiki at the AussieVoIP site (Rob's wiki). The new Wiki at FreePBX.org is not nearly as good, and it is very disorganized, to the point that I still have difficulty finding pages I know are there. On many pages you can't edit or add anything as you could on AussieVoIP. There is a glaring spelling error that hasn't been fixed since the site was put up. If the AussieVoIP wiki rated about an 8 or 9 out of 10, the new Wiki rates maybe a 2, and that's if you're feeling generous. Few people other than Phillipe post anything on the Wiki these days.

Even on the #freepbx IRC channel the former sense of community is long gone (unless it has recently been revived - I stopped dropping in months ago).

Now, having said all that, I am NOT a Trixbox fanboy. I didn't like the fact that Fonality took over Asterisk@Home in the first place, and I didn't care for some of the changes they made, but some folks here are acting like FreePBX is on the side of the light while Fonality has gone to the dark side, and I just don't think that's true. The real problem is that Asterisk@Home was, if I am not mistaken, originally something of a hobbyist project that just happened to have real uses in a commercial environment. However at some point, the people in change lost sight of the fact that many contributors are better than just a few, and that motivated hobbyists sometimes push the envelope and come up with real innovations.

All of these are simply my observations, take them for whatever they are worth, keeping in mind that all I know is what I saw in the forums and on the IRC channels when I was actively participating there. Frankly, at this point I wish someone would start an entirely new community project, learning from the mistakes of Asterisk@Home, FreePBX and Trixbox. The #1 goal would be to foster an inclusive community, where all contributions are welcome, as long as they work and don't break any existing functionality. At the same time, there should be enough documentation that potential module authors know what they can and cannot do, and the approved way to interface with the core. Another module's source code, no matter how well commented it might be, is no substitute for good documentation and explicit guidelines for module authors. And there should be a way to use modules written in nearly any modern language, not just the language preferred by the current developer(s).

I do want to end on a positive note - despite my observations above, the FreePBX team has done a heck of a job with FreePBX. I just think it could be even better if more people were involved in its creation, and if it were easier to create extensions and add-ons. Think about Firefox as an example, there are hundreds of add-ons and some are really great and others are total crap, but as long as they meet certain basic guidelines you can get them off the official add-on site. Now how good do you think Firefox would be if someone was rejecting extensions developed today because they might not work with version 5.0? The difference is that the Firefox community welcomes contributions whereas the FreePBX developers just don't seem to like anything they didn't personally write (or at least it appears that way). To the extent that the Trixbox fork will introduce some fresh blood into the coding process, it might turn out to be a good thing. It's just really sad that it had to come to this. I wish Fonality could pay Rob Thomas enough to take the project back over (if he would) but I sort of doubt they would do that, or that he's interested. And I'll shut up now.

My company was in urgent need of an upgrade to our telephone system. I spent a year looking at what was available and found that a new system was going to cost $60,000. Service to our then current system cost $200 per hour with a two hour minimum. Before trixbox an employee moved her desk and called the telephone service provider to move her extension - cost me $400 to move a connector from port 12 to port 15. Two days later someone asked for a menu change. That months phone bill for the changes was $800.

Leo Laporte mentioned trixbox on a podcast which led me down the path of discovering VOIP, finding this forum, and silently learning how to build a computer with trixbox. I now have a system installed with 15 extensions - total investment is around $5000. Cost for a service call is zero. Flexibility is close to unlimited. We can make menu changes whenever needed and cost is zero. In my case, all due to trixbox and this forum.

I am just a user and have contributed almost nothing to this community, only gave a small donation once when it was asked for. Kerry's book " TrixBox Made Easy" gave me the courage to get started. I am sure there are others, like me, grateful that trixbox exists and appreciate the leaders like Kerry that manage it.

I also appreciate the others that post to this forum giving advise to users such as myself - even though it seems from the tone of some of these posts that there are those that disagree with this latest change in direction. The work done by this community does not go unnoticed by us "users" and I hope that all this negativity does not discourage development of this project.

I'm not disputing that Rob was still involved with the project when Custom contexts was submitted, but as you are no doubt aware, there was no clean handoff from one developer to another - instead, Rob just became less and less involved (probably in part due to family obligations). Also, if I recall correctly Custom Contexts was originally submitted as an attachment to a ticket, and the ticket system was horribly backed up (which, admittedly, was a problem that started under Rob's tenure, but after all, he was only one person). So, sure, maybe Rob could have jumped right on it the day it was submitted, but he didn't, but since then it's never been accepted into the list of approved and maintained modules.

Anyway, I only mentioned that as an illustration of a more pervasive problem - you've got one developer that's primarily doing all the work, and he'd doing things his way, and not encouraging submissions by others, nor even providing sufficient documentation to make it easy for others to submit modules. Whether by accident or design, he's created a situation where other aspiring module writers would have to in effect reverse engineer existing modules to see how they work, then figure out how to write theirs, and all the time they'd likely receive nearly zero encouragement from the development team. I'm not saying this situation was created with malice aforethought or anything like that; instead it's just sort of the way things have developed (pardon the pun). I just think it would be a lot better if this project welcomed contributions and encouraged submissions by "outsiders", and even provided some documentation of the basic structure of a module so that programmers would have an easier go of it, and would not feel as though the developers wish they would just go away.

Remember that perception does not always equate with reality, but for those not in the "inner circle", perception is sometimes all we have to go on. And it's not as though you can point to a huge body of contributed and officially accepted modules, in order to disprove my basic premise.

PBX in a Flash has its own share if issues. For one, there is a contingent there that feels that things written for PiaF should stay with PiaF, so they take measures to make it difficult for the average Joe to move the code to another distribution (or roll their own) if they wish. This goes against the spirit of openness that they profess to adhere to.

I'm referring specifically to the module discussed in this thread:

http://pbxinaflash.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65

but there are others.

There is a binary installer that checks to see if you're trying to install on a non-PiaF system, and if you are it will tell you that you aren't "allowed" to install it, even though the code it's installing is distributed under the GPL. I don't know if this is an actual GPL violation, but it certainly goes against the spirit of the GPL.

I called out the authors on that (and found out that the author of the code that does the work is not the author of the binary installer-- oops) only to have all my posts deleted from the thread.

All of these projects have some counter-productive element like this to them, and it's detrimental to the community at large. That is to say, the "Open" in a lot of them appears to be merely lip-service.

kodak - feeling that sentiment - not bagging on any of the other guys, but its hard to watch them bag on the competition and turn around, and silently exhibit the same/similar behavior. if this was truelly so called open source everything would be viewable, and everyone would be able to contribute, fonality has the viewable part down, if we could just get the contribute part down, this thing would skyrocket.

as long as we're talking about doggies-

they like to play ball.